Max Divergent

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Posts by Max Divergent

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  20

  NY TIMES ARTICLE - Read it Here!

  by Salud in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for those who can't wait till sunday...

  ousted members contend jehovah's witnesses' abuse policy hides offenses

  by laurie goodstein

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  Max Divergent

  Two lines yell out from this:

  ...leave it in Jehovah's hands....Since there weren't two eyewitnesses, they said there wasn't much they could do."

  But Jehovah's hands* have brought about: reporting laws from Ceaser that set out a basic christian principle - protect the weak from the strong; case studies in the Catholic Church et al; many 'spiritual men' within the organisation who've brought matters to attention through the proper channels...

  Dang!!! He even provided his Son's life to remove the two witness rule provided to the Isralites in Duteronomy that would otherwise have prevented them acting as 'reasonable men' do in these matters!

  After all that work, what's left for an all-powerful God to do but to appeal to the New York Times?

  In these cases we are not going to be vindictive because these are our brothers, and we would hope that they would change

  Oh, so... right... So you're concerned that there may be a measure of 'vindictivness' in DFing and reporting your brother the child rapist, so to be kind you do next to nothing?

  So... When people are accused of/confess to consentual sex acts (like fonding the breasts twice, or whatever), the elders can deal with this without vindictivness and there's no chance of horny teenagers or anyone else changing, so it's OK to DF. However if it's child abuse, strong action might include a measure of vindictivness and hamper personal development, so better just have a little chat...

  Umm... a lot could be said about that attitude, but an obvious thing is that the JW's substantive punishment for consenting sex is greater than for raping children^.

  Thank you for making that clear JR Brown.

  Cheers, Max

  * Alternative views include: 1. Jehovah dosn't exist, or 2. He exisits but is very different to what the WTS make him out to be, or 3. He is exactly what the WTS say he is and we're all hoping like hell that we don't have to live forever under the kind of rule currently enjoyed in the 'Spiritual Paradise'.. (btw, can W invade Brooklyn?)

  ^ For more insight to the careless, uncaring, ignorant way the GB/WTS deals with peoples sexuality (and lives generally), just refer to CofC, p.41-50. This mob still make life harder for horny teenagers and consenting adults than they do for child rapists.
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  23

  HOW MANY HERE HAVE HAD JUDICIAL ACTION?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  many of the posters here have been in the organization for years.during the time that you have been associated, have you ever had to go before a commitee?

  did you confess to something or were you confronted by the elders?

  were you ever accused of something but it couldn't be proven?

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  Max Divergent

  Yeah, and probably had a unique experince for it! The result was reversed!!! I was a real goody-two-shoes and had a guilty conscience about somthing I though was fairly minor about five years earlier. There was a local needs talk that kicked me in the guts and I confessed expecting a bit of council and nothing much more.

  BANG!!! 'There will be a Juficial Committee and you may be Disfellowshipped.' was the flat reply - I was absolutly shocked and was physically ill. Anyway, it played out and I got a public reproof and removed as an MS. I was horrified coz 1. I believed it was unjust and unchristian, and 2. I was a self-righteous prick and didn't cope too well with being brought down 25 pegs!!!

  But I was also tight with the CO. He had a look at it, told me I was a bad boy, looked up the article in the '75 KM that says if you did somthing 'bad' more than 3 years ago and it wasn't in the WT at the time that it was a DF offence and have been appointed by holy sprit to a position in the meantime, then you can't be put in front of a Judicial Committee for it. He put that to the Committee who reversed their decison and the paperwork was torn up (apparently). (I understand this was written so as to avoid mass DFings of E/MS when the smoking rules came in).

  So, I was a reproved & removed, then the first thing I did after that was respond to the CO's call from the platform for me to close his Sunday meeting in prayer!!! That fucked them up! So I got to be even more self-righteous for a few years before eventually walking away from it on my own terms.

  It was a life changing experience.

  Cheers, Max
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  18

  From the mouths of babes (post your funnies)

  by Cappuccino OC in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a couple of years ago during the km meeting the day of the memorial was announced, location and time.

  the announcement was followed by a km article review re: the memorial (question & answer).

  my daughter was 5 at that time and had been dozing off & on.

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  Max Divergent

  A young son of an uber-Elder was doing a demo about his school Witnessing and in a very serious and intense voice said, 'I explianed to him about the paradise ... and he took it well'.

  Maybe you had to be there, but the whole congo just cracked up!
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  17

  A Gap In My Knowledge.

  by Englishman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have a gap in my knowledge re some of the procedures that come into play when someone decides that they simply don't want to be a witness any more.

  just to explain:.

  in my dub years, there were any number of ex-witnesses around.

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  Max Divergent

  I guess stories like: "I'm outraged! The elders left me alone and didn't do anything after I fobbed them off about not going to meetings for a month/year/decade", or "Can you believe what happened!! I didn't get a shepherding visit/judicial committee/third degree on schedule after I quietly and politely slipped away causing no ripples" aren't very memorable and don't leave the impression the more dramatic stories of inequity do.

  My recollection from the Shepherding work was that there were quite a few people around who no longer believed but lived quiet lives and caused no problems just as you described. We just called on them out of duty and (an odd form of) courtesy.

  Those you describe who just dont believe probably dont talk about it much.

  Cheers, Max (who did a rapid-fade, and now lives a quiet life in the country away from the urban hurly-burly where those three might meet again to revisit battles neither lost nor won...)

  (Edited to replace punctuation that vanished into the ether)

  Edited by - Max Divergent on 4 August 2002 1:2:16
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  22

  SURVEY *Question RE: Disfellowshipping *

  by zev in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  have any of you here, either by word of mouth or personal experience, heard of entire congregations being disfellowshipped, or nearly entire congregations, like say 50% or more?

  thank you for your support in this all important survey .

  from apostate central, ri .

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  Max Divergent

  There was a circut in Australia that had two consecutive CO's DF'd while they were serving in around 1995/6 ish.
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  45

  Ever lie on your service reports?

  by The_Bad_Seed in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  *laughing just thinking about it*.

  did anybody out there lie on their service reports that they maintained the 'national average' when in reality you got .005 hours of service in any given month?

  i magically always used to always get "10" hours out in service, while nobody ever saw me at the groups, no one ever caught on, or seemed not to -- maybe they just didn't give a shit.. i always lied so i could keep my microphone 'privelidges' -- that being, the privelidge to walk around at the back of the hall giving my deflated ass a break from those awful chairs they had.

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  Max Divergent

  I remember the scepticisim of the Service Overseer at some of the reports of the older sisters! The speculation was that they counted their preperation time, travel time, thinking time... but it never twigged to this naive twit that they probably just made half of it up (some of them bought 20+ mags a months though, so they paid for their sins...)!

  If 'd have twigged earlier, I'd have started doing it a lot, lot earlier than I did! It was only the last six or so months for me. It just neve occured to me to do anything but be conservitive with what I counted - dumb ass!!

  Max (not so) Divergent
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  9

  Survey result: JW views on Homosexuality

  by Max Divergent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  were you more liberal that your jw peers?.

  a 2001 survey asked for a response to the statement: "i believe homosexuality is immoral".

  based on the religion of the respondents, it found that found that 84% of jws responded 'yes', compared to 20% of jews, 30% of 'no religion', and 48% of americans and 36% of australians overall.

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  Max Divergent

  Hi - Justa quick reply to some of the major points: 

  1. The stats for other faiths is at the link. 

  2. Even though the bible read litrally says what it says, many religious people don't take the bible literally and wouldn't conclude that makes homosexuality immoral in the 21st Century, although JW's do. Ture enough, this makes them more complient with the written word that other faiths, but many would argue that formal compliance with the written word dosn't make them more Christian or more moral than people who take a less literal approach to it. 3. Yeah, I guess 16% didn't tow the party line! Could be some polling irregularities in there, but it's still a lot. Thanks for your comments. Cheers, Max of the Divergent class
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  9

  Survey result: JW views on Homosexuality

  by Max Divergent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  were you more liberal that your jw peers?.

  a 2001 survey asked for a response to the statement: "i believe homosexuality is immoral".

  based on the religion of the respondents, it found that found that 84% of jws responded 'yes', compared to 20% of jews, 30% of 'no religion', and 48% of americans and 36% of australians overall.

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  Max Divergent

  Were you more liberal that your JW peers?

  A 2001 survey asked for a response to the statement: "I believe homosexuality is immoral". Based on the religion of the respondents, it found that found that 84% of JWs responded 'Yes', compared to 20% of Jews, 30% of 'No religion', and 48% of Americans and 36% of Australians overall. JW and Mormons (83%) had the strongest belief that homosexuality was immoral.

  The point is that if you had a more liberal view on that question to 84% of your JW peers, you really didn't fit in as a Witness, and you probably had a whole bunch of other divergent views too. So, it's just as well you're out isn't it!!

  Source is the reputable Roy Morgan: http://www.roymorgan.com.au/international/pressreleases/2001/article19.html
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  11

  Ozzie's Weekend Poll #13

  by ozziepost in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  yes, it's number 13 in a series of weekend polls designed to brighten your day on a lazy sunday afternoon!

  this weekend's poll topic invites us to do some market research!

  the question is prompted by the recently published findings of the national church life survey (australia) conducted in 2001. all church attenders were asked their highest educational qualification.

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  Max Divergent

  I really couldn't remember. Of all the hundreds of JW I knew, I can only think of about two or three with Postgrad quals (ie: <0.5%) - none in my congo. Very few had degrees, the only one in my cong was a teacher who worked as a painter. Many of the men had trade quals, but that varied between congos. To the best of my memory and knowledge, <2% had degrees (ie: less than 2 in each Congo of 100), maybe 30% had trade or other vocational quals, the remainder secondary school only.

  While it's a bit churlish to imply that JW are dumb or under-achievers or are predominantly part of lower socio-economic grouping or whatever, it's interesting to note where people are at in the big picture of things. Religion is a big part of people's identity and it's probably legitimate to hypothosise that people's religious identity will be reflected in key indicators of their work, education, political leaning (even neutrals usually have a leaning).

  The point is: If you don't fit into the 'mold', you may not fit in to the group.

  On that note, a survey qustion I though was interesting I found intersting found little variation between US, NZ and Aust responses to the question: "Obedience and respect for authority are the most important virtues children should learn". Source: http://www.roymorgan.com.au/polls/2001/3414/index.html

  While a majority of the general community said 'Yes', demographics that answered overwhelmingly 'YES!!!' (>60%) included those with =< Secondary school education only, people with low incomes and people who voted for conservitive and further right parties (and I can only presume a massive majority of JWs).

  Demographics that gave a strong 'NO!' (>60%) had university education, had high incomes and voted for the Greens or other leftish Progressive parties.

  I clearly and comfortably fall into the latter demographic (have 1 degree, working on the 2nd; higher than average income (at last!) and member of a progressive party (Australian Democrats). Maybe that's an indicator that I never fitted into the JW's.

  In fact it could be said I was Divergent to the Max.

  Cheers
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  26

  'Nice' news article from Fl

  by Max Divergent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  .

  here's a nice sickly sweet article from fl about the tireless efforts of the local neighbourhood witnessess working for your salvation despite terrible persecution... i really liked the bit where a lady who takes in stray cats and dogs also invited the jw's in!.

  http://www.sptimes.com/2002/07/11/floridian/the_other_side_of_the.shtml

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  Max Divergent

  Here's a nice sickly sweet article from Fl about the tireless efforts of the local neighbourhood Witnessess working for your salvation despite terrible persecution... I really liked the bit where a lady who takes in stray cats and dogs also invited the JW's in!

  http://www.sptimes.com/2002/07/11/Floridian/The_other_side_of_the.shtml